The Marvel/Del Rey collaboration will be coming out in March.  Will these titles cool or inflame the debate?  Can it get manga readers interested in comics and visa versa?  Or is the divide between these two groups too great?  Or is the whole debate just pointless?

Katherine Farmar: This isn't the first time Marvel have tried manga out -- and while this attempt could hardly be worse than the execrable Mangaverse titles (seriously, whoever thought the Mangaverse Phoenix miniseries was a good idea needs to be slapped with a trout), I'm not optimistic. It's entirely possible that the creators involved will come up with something interesting and worth reading, but the idea smacks of bandwagon-jumping. I don't get the impression from the PR that the creators came up with the story concepts; it seems more like somebody at a higher level in the company said "well, there are two kinds of manga, right, one for boys and one for girls, so we'll get someone to do a Wolverine manga for the boys and somebody else to do an X-Men manga for the girls. And this time we won't put Phoenix in a thong."

Which is a shame, because back in the Jemas days, Marvel put out some interesting work by Japanese artists using Marvel characters. The least adventurous was the brief period when Kia Asamiya drew Uncanny X-Men; he slid surprisingly easily into the straitjacket-like constraints of American superhero comics and did a decent job, considering he was drawing a script by Chuck Austen. But then you got more unusual projects like Wolverine: Snikt! by Tsutomu Nihei, and X-Men Unlimited #50, written by Kazuo Koike with art by Paul Smith. I don't know whether you could call them successful, exactly -- I don't know how well they sold, or what the creators were trying to achieve. But they were at least interesting on a level other than "this can help us appeal to a different demographic".

(Honestly, my first reaction when I heard that Marvel was going to do a "shoujo manga" version of X-Men was "isn't that called 'the Chris Claremont run'?")

Alex Hoffman: Mangaverse Phoenix was awful, I agree, but I don't necessarily think these new "manga" are going to be terrible. Unlike other superheroes, the X-Men have plenty of room to create series that reverberate with the manga reading public. Their characters are interesting, and have plenty to offer a would-be reader. The thing I'd like to point out most of all is that we're not really seeing a change in content. It's more a change in format.

Comics are comics no matter what label we give them. My original interest in comic books at a young age are what helped me find manga as I grew older and moved on to college. Manga has its own stylistic points and layouts that make it different from the American full color superhero comic and the way that the dialog is delivered is different, that's true. Despite these few differences, we're still reading an illustrated story, origins be damned. It's this connection that I hope will give a bit of weight to these X-Men crossover titles.

In this sense, I think that when you mix the two types of comics, if done correctly, you'll see a bit of crossover, and perhaps more comics people will be interested in manga and manga people will become interested in comic books, a sort of cross pollination, if you will. You might even see some off the street, non-manga, non-comic book readers pick up these books because of the movie tie-ins. Marvel properties are pretty hot now in the movie business. What matters most, though, is that this crossover is done right. If this is more of a bandwagon maneuver that gives us crap instead of content, I think you won't see much in the way of sales. People's dollars will tell the tale, as it were.

Charles Tan: I think it ultimately depends on the aims of the project. For example, when it comes to Marvel's Mangaverse, I don't think that was really aimed at the casual anime fan. Marvel Mangaverse was actually smart in the sense that it was a spoof of various anime using Marvel's IP--I remember a scene where various Iron Man suits were present and was actually a homage to the Gundam universe (as in drawn using various Gundams and if you're a Gundamphile like me, you'd recognize which model it was based from). However, that kind of thing has a limited audience. I mean you not only had to be a fan of Marvel comics, you also had to be this manga otaku. If you were just one or the other, you'd think it was a pile of crap. This project, however, sounds like it's going to be something that's less inclusive as that.

Can the Marvel/Del Rey Manga fusion work? Sure! It all depends on execution. I don't think anything's impossible. Is it likely to happen though? Well, that's up for fans to consider and track record of both companies (and even then, the company might surprise you).

If we're just going to talk about manga-esque Marvel titles done right, everyone should check out Runaways. People nowadays might cite the third volume thanks to writer Joss Whedon but honestly you should check out volumes one and two. It has the artistic sensibilities of, well, for me not manga but anime, and features good storytelling and that Marvel comics feel. And it's funny that I'm mentioning Runaways.

In 2003, Marvel actually released another unofficial "manga" line--this time aimed at new readers (most where aimed at a young audience but titles like Mystique clearly had an adult vibe with its focus on espionage and betrayal). It was labeled as the Tsunami imprint and featured titles like Sentinel which followed that boy-and-his-robot formula with gorgeous Japanese-inspired art. Some were good, some were bad (everyone should remember that as far as the West is concerned, the manga we receive are usually the cream of the crop--why would anyone be interested in licensing horrible manga?) but in the end, the only survivor from that line was Runaways.

Also, this isn't the first time that a manga artist used Marvel property. A few decades ago, Spider-Man had a cult following in Japan (he had his own super robot!) and this included a live-action show (more tokusatsu really than superhero) and a manga series. Of course this was a Japanese writer/artist writing for a Japanese audience.

Some Japanese artists have also worked for Marvel's rival, DC, to produce American comics with supposedly Japanese sensibilities. One title that comes to mind is Batman: Child of Dreams. Kia Asamiya seemed a good fit (he's a big Batman collector and if you read some of his manga, you can spot Batman cameos) although it seemed to alienate the purist Batman fans. Interestingly enough, this was published in Japan under Kodansha and guess who's one of Del Rey's partners are?

As for Katherine's examples, I wouldn't say Asamiya's Uncanny X-Men run is quite manga. Rather, it's American superhero comics drawn using a Japanese artist. It certainly didn't pretend to be anything than that. I don't think manga fans, unless you're only reading it for the art, would have been interested in Uncanny X-Men.

As for whether Marvel can do Shojo, ultimately again it falls down on execution (more specifically, the writer-artist tandem). Some attempts attracting a female demographic have blatantly failed. On the other hand, some have seemed to work, such as Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane (and again, very anime-esque art much like Runaways [they were using the same penciller, Canadian born Takeshi Miyazawa] so you might want to check that out).

Ultimately, whether the title succeeds or fails shouldn't be blamed on the IP ("You can't do it because it's X-Men!"). Blame or credit should go to the creative team: the artist, the writer, the editor, etc. They'll make it work or they won't but it's not because of a general decision such as to write/draw Wolverine or X-Men.
 
KF: I'd agree with that last point, and thanks for the reminder of the Tsunami line: a well-meaning venture by Marvel that didn't get the audience it deserved to. (Though a minor correction, Charles: although Takeshi Miyazawa did draw some issues of Runaways, the main penciller was Adrian Alphona for the original run and the first 24 issues of the second volume.)

What you say about Asamiya on Uncanny raises another question: what is manga, exactly? And what's not manga? I think Charles is right that hiring a Japanese artist to draw a conventional American superhero comic written by an American writer doesn't result in something that can meaningfully be called "manga"; but then, I'm a purist where that word is concerned. As far as I'm concerned, it's only manga if it's created for a Japanese audience within the Japanese publishing industry. Otherwise, it may be Japanese-influenced, it may be manga-esque, and it may be absolutely superb, but it's not really manga. Which leaves these new Marvel titles out in the cold.
 
But I'm aware that not everyone agrees with my hardline stance. (And just to make it absolutely clear: I'm not knocking the actual work that's promoted as "OEL manga" or "global manga". I've really enjoyed Tokyopop's OEL stuff, and I was horribly disappointed when they drastically cut back on it. Now I may never get to hold volume three of Gyakushu! in my hands, and that makes me sad.) On the other hand, there are those who go further: not only saying that OEL works are "not really manga", but that they're inherently bad and "fake", and that really bugs me. It's not true, and it's not fair to the artists, who are not trying to fool anyone; they're just drawing in the style that they like best, and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Personally, I think that the influx of manga-influenced artists into the US comics market has been a breath of fresh air. They're producing wonderful work that's fresh and entertaining and completely lacking in the self-consciousness that sometimes makes me want to give up American comics for good. I'm not bothered by Western artists being influenced by manga; but I am bothered by publishers using "manga" as a marketing term for works that aren't Japanese. I don't think it does anyone any good to flatten out the meaning of a word like that.

CT: Thanks for the correction! My stance on manga is much more lenient. It doesn't need to be manga drawn by Japanese for Japanese. However, a good question is raised. What is manga? I think there are certainly tropes and techniques that are commonly used in manga beyond the "huge eyes" (which, I might add, is not present in every manga). It could be the use of the super-deformed element (although again, not every manga has SD characters). A common complaint by Western comic fans against manga is that it's much too decompressed (the story is too spread out that necessary). For example, usually in superhero comics, a fight scene is usually a page or two, or a few pages at most. In manga, well, we did that have Freeza and Goku fight in Dragonball Z didn't we? There are certainly elements that can be identified in both styles.

Of course we might be treading into a new topic, "what is manga," and maybe we should save that for another debate. (Alas, this is probably one of those debates that will never die.)

Justin Colussy-Estes: I think that debate will fall away as we hit the next generation of readers--who really won't make distinctions between OEL, manga, manwha, nouvelle manga, European-influenced manga (here I'm thinking of Taiyō Matsumoto and the like), or manga-influenced western comics (a number of publishers are plucking works from Europe)... I mean, what is TokyoPop's new Orange? Manga? Manwha? It looks like the Hong Kong comics put out by ComicsOne/DrMasters, but it's done by Benjamin, a Chinese artist, and wasn't it released in Japan first? These things are just getting blurred to the point that the distinctions aren't that clear anymore, and the less clear, the less relevant I think they'll be (Of course, I also like to think world peace is possible in my lifetime, so it's possible I'm really wrong about this).
 
But if you look at that list (and getting back to the topic at hand), you'll see that what I didn't mention is superhero comics. Because of the economics/marketplace of that material (it really only thrives in the direct market) and the marketing decisions made based on this financial reality (can anyone who hasn't been reading Marvel/DC comics for decades truly follow or even care about that material? It feels to me incredibly insular and resistant to new and/or casual reading), I think the notion that anyone who reads superhero material crossing over into manga because of some "bridge" comic is a foolhardy notion. Similarly, I don't think the reverse is likely either: Really, if you are a reader of manga, and you pick up these new Marvel/Del Ray books, what's next for you? Put another way, is there anything being done with Green Lantern or Iron Man or the Fantastic Four or Wonder Woman that isn't already being done better in some manga/manwha/etc. title better? Is there any reason in the world to pick up a four dollar, 22 page story where you don't know the background of the situations and characters, it's hard to find the beginning, the stories are obtuse, there's little humor/emotional drama/cool fights (all things superhero comics seem oddly resistant to right now) AND when you can find all of that and more in a book five to eight times as long for only 2-3 times the price? And all you sacrifice is color?

Yes, these books feel like they emerge from a cynical marketing decision, but they may rise above that; they may be great--less Marvel Mangaverse and more Archie's Sabrina under Tania del Rio. But I don't think they'll change the marketplace or readership in any significant way. Ultimately, I hope they're great books. I just wish Marvel (and DC for that matter) was more interested in telling new stories with new characters--mangafied, vertigo-ized, or whatever-- than in telling the same old stories over and over again, only changing the face on old material to try and capitalize on various market forces.

CT: As someone who's dabbled in both worlds (superhero comics and manga) and, ugh, seen the forums/mailing lists/blogs of both, I'll agree that superhero comic fans tend to be insular but so are manga fans. Each one treats their own work as high-class literature and snubs the other as if it was genre fiction. And there's a tendency on each side to see the worst in the other (not that they aren't true mind you, that just tends to be the focus). I mean for every manga fan that thinks "oh no, not another continuity-convoluted crossover series", there's a comics fan that says "oh no, not another fighting tournament manga that stretches out for XX volumes."

Oh, and I beg to disagree. There are some things that superhero comics does that quite frankly manga/manhwa doesn't. Of the titles that got mentioned, I'd say Green Lantern and Iron Man right now is at the top of its game and actually quite accessible. And if you want examples of something that US comics does right now that manga doesn't, it can be something as simple as actually catering to a US audience and including US cultures and values. And if you want the good and bad thing about US comics, there's the value of a legacy. Legion of Three Worlds right now is simply fricking awesome with lots of cool moments and granted, some of it is tied to the fact that it builds upon what's been established before (some anime/manga does this as well such as Gundam or the Mazinger series).

Both companies, DC and Marvel, also do launch new titles. For the most part however, they're not much of a success. The rebranding of Blue Beetle for example with its focus on a US racial minority (Mexican) got critical praise but unfortunately isn't selling well (hence the cancellation of the series). DC also has its Vertigo line which is coming up with new titles all the time--and most of them have nothing to do with superheroes. As for Marvel, well, as I've mentioned above, they've released new brands which didn't really fare as much as they'd hope to. New IPs are being introduced and created all the time but unfortunately, they don't get as much traction.

And while I'm a "story" guy, some people actually do value art, especially colored art.

Interestingly enough, a company that's treaded both worlds--both manga and US comics--is Dark Horse and proves that it can be done (remember, they later acquired the rights to one of the first US comics based on a manga property, Adam Warren's The Dirty Pair).

In the long run though, I don't like judging a work before its out. Will the Marvel/Del Rey coalition be the pilot in what would later be a fusion of American and Japanese techniques? I'm honestly skeptical but that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility. At the very least both companies are brave and willing to take a risk in exploring such a venture. It'll never happen unless one tries.

John Thomas: I agree the lines between media is fading. I won't go into the "what is manga?" debate, but I think there may be a time when distinguishing between manga and comics is more difficult. I am biased, but I agree with Charles in his assessment of Dark Horse as the blueprint of success in how to publish titles from both sides of the Pacific. Admittedly, there is little cross-over in terms of titles, but honestly, who is pining for manga-comic collaborations? Are fans (who tend to be one or the other) really asking for manga-superhero team-ups? I am much more excited by the notion of mangettes, which will come out later this year created by CLAMP and published by Dark Horse. The notion that fans in Japan, Korea and the US can pick up the same title on the same day in their home language seems like it has much more potential success than manga X-Men.
 
JCE: Yes, Charles, I completely agree that there's a thrill I get from Incredible Hercules when Herc turns to his companion and says "Shut up, you're not listening. This is a MYTH I'm telling you. Myths aren't some collection of dates and biographies you bicker over like a clerk with his ledger. Myths are stories only have the meaning you give to them. So listen..." And that thrill is not a thrill possible in Manga, because it taps into the Greek myths, Western culture, Superhero mythology, and the problems of continuity in a way that's simply not possible outside contemporary superhero comics (and, I would say, comics outside Marvel/DC). But part of the reason that's exciting is that it rejects the pettiest aspects of continuity and shared worlds, instead embracing what's great about them, something all too rare these days in superhero comics. I think you have to hunt hard for those moments, those characters, those superhero stories that give these electric thrills instead of trying to imitate movies, or some odd perception of "serious literature," or, yes, manga.
 
And yes, what Dark Horse does, I think, is the answer to a "meeting of the minds," as it were. They've got Hellboy and the Umbrella Academy, Lone Wolf and Cub, Eden, and Translucent, manga we've reviewed here. And in an industry so defined by the question "who publishes that?", isn't that a melding of east and west far beyond manga Batman and manga Spider-man?

AH: On the subject of manga/manhwa vs Western comics being different because they cater to different audiences; isn't that the point? Manga, as a whole (excluding various Kasumi like efforts and OEL ventures) is a body of work written by the Japanese for Japanese readers. So yes, Green Lantern and other Western comics draw on Western ideals, cultures, and values, but in the same sense, do we not see manga pulling on Japanese ideals, cultures, and values in order to tell a better story? The comics are both dancing the same dance, as it were, but for different audiences. And I think that's what makes manga inherently different from Western comics. However, they're still comics.

I do agree that the lines are much more blurry than they were before between the different genres of comic books. That's why I think this is the perfect time for the X-men manga. Right now, while people are pushing boundaries and trying new things, like the CLAMP mangettes, is the perfect time to try and mix the two genres.

John has another excellent point, which I'm afraid I first missed; who wants to buy a manga about the X-men? A lot of people, I think, but not your regular comics guy. Yes, you will get a cross-over. Yes, it will be significant (if the books are any good, that is.) The thing I think you'll see though is that there are a lot of girls that really enjoyed the X-men movies, and liked the characters from even the latest TV shows that would be willing to grab a shojo version of X-men. The setting has all the makings of a good shojo romance; co-ed boarding school, extraordinary powers, cool boys, etc. So, you might actually see a better turn out for the shojo book than the Wolverine title.

JT: Well put, Alex. Dr. Xavier's Academy may be one of the original shojo boarding schools, and didn't even know it. There is no doubt that American superheroes have an appeal in Japan (the characters, if not actual comics), but are the efforts we are talking about here even hitting shelves in Japan? I can understand why an American fan wouldn't see the need for a manga version of Wolverine, but are Japanese manga readers getting a chance to see these? If not, why not?

JCE: That's probably the most interesting question: what's the reception for this in other countries? Obviously superhero material has a place in Japan, you see it's influence all over the place. But does that mean that it sits on shelves next to manga? Does it have a dusty corner where it sits, lonely and afraid? What's the physical format, and does that affect how it's received? And what about Korea, Europe, other parts of Asia? Anybody here have answers to these questions?

Lori Henderson:  Late to the party, I know, but better late than never.  Alex, you've been hitting a lot of the points I would have anyway, so I don't feel so bad.

I don't think the point of the manga-ized version of the X-men is to reach other countries.  Del Rey's license of the characters will probably be for North American Distribution only.  It's about reaching an audience that wouldn't walk into a comic book store, but would a Barnes and Noble.  This is Marvel's attempt to reach the female audience that has eluded them for so long.  It's at least more than just shrinking down Marvel trades to "manga-size" (I hate that term), but really, it's no different than licensing the characters to Hollywood.  The success of the movies have shown Marvel there is more money to be made on these characters, and putting them in manga form is the best way to reach that audience.

In terms of demographics, I don't think this is a bad idea.  As someone who has read X-men in the past, I am one of those that doesn't see a need for a manga versions, but there may be a large audience out there put off by the comics that will be more amiable to the manga.  It's the backlash from the hardcore fanbase that I'm dreading.
 
JCE: Will there be a backlash, considering the hardcore fanbase 1) doesn't get their comics in a bookstore, and 2) wants their comics in pamphlet form, and 3) probably won't glance at it even if it's in front of them (I'm guessing the size will cause them to overlook it--it won't "compute", as it were).

JT: I guess I am missing the point. If the intention is to make manga that girls will read, then make manga girls will read. A barrier to entry is put up once you tack on the "X-men" label. No girl in America has never heard of the X-men, and chances are she already has an opinion...and chances are (following the logic outlined above... and not to be sexist) she doesn't like it. So why try and force it down the throats of other readers. Japan has four basic but distinct "markets" of manga readers: shojo, shonen, jyosei and seinen. There are gray areas, for sure, but no publisher tries to shojo-ize Hellsing in order to expand the audience. They just make a new shojo title. I don't care how badass it looked, I am not buying a seinen version of "Camp Rock" no  matter what you do to it. "Men's Vogue" keeps sending me flyers in the mail. I don't care if it is the best magazine on the planet, I can't see myself subscribing to a magazine that has "Vogue" in the title. I am not sure how hardcore fans will react...

AH: I don't understand your reasoning as to why a girl wouldn't like X-Men. Being a female has nothing to do with understanding or liking the concept and characters of the series. Sure, the main characters have superpowers, but so do the characters in Kasumi, and that's not stopping people from buying the series. While it's true that many women who like the X-Men have only seen one or two of the movies, you can't say that the X-men title is a barrier to women buying the manga any more than any other property they may not be familiar with. Furthermore, X-Men has the movie industry on its side which will help bring in outside buyers.

Let me also say that the US can print manga that fits into certain audiences in Japan, but media in the US is different from the media in Japan. Many of your "Disney-esque" mega-hits like Camp Rock and High School Musical do not target anything other than an age group, for example, kids under the age of 10. Shonen or shojo manga targets gender and age group (trying to pull boys from ages 8-14 or girls 9-15). You see that in much of US media; it would rather target one demographic (say, age OR gender) than  two demographics (age AND gender). That difference alone is going to change the way you craft the entertainment you're making. With this in consideration, comparing a shojo X-Men to a seinen Camp Rock is just plain silly. What we do see here is a repetition of the same US media theme; instead of targeting an age and gender, Marvel has specifically crafted manga that only targets a gender.

Finally, I'd like to point out that women in the US that are reading manga right now are, in my mind, much more flexible with their reading patterns than you're giving them credit for. The female otaku doesn't just read shojo; she may extensively read shojo, but she may also like Fullmetal Alchemist. In this sense, I think the people who initially purchase the books are going to be a lot more open minded about the property than you imagine.

LH: John, what about all the talk about Shonen Jump becoming more "fujoshi"-ized, with pretty boys for the girls to read and write their yaoi doujinshi about?  It's not cut and dry in Japan, or here.  You can say "in general" the books are written for a specific audience, but there will always be cross-over.  I'm a perfect example.  My library includes shojo, and shonen.  Hell, I started out reading shonen, and slowly got into shojo.

Girls will have heard of X-Men, if only from the movies, and might know in the back of their minds it was based on a comic book, but they aren't going to search it out at a comic book store (if there's one local), and if they did, it won't be anything like the movie anyway, and they would pass on it.  I think Marvel knows this, so they are just cashing in on a property that is known by general audiences in a format that girls are more likely to pick up.  They aren't forcing anything down anyone's throats, as you say.  But I know how hard core comic readers can be (I know a few personally), and they aren't going to like seeing one of their titles shojo-ized, and will not be quiet about it.  They will never pick the title up, but you can be sure they'll have plenty to say about it.

These titles aren't just about making manga girls will read.  Del Rey can do that just fine without Marvel.  It's about Marvel trying to get girls to read their properties.  And not just girls.  The Wolverine title is a shonen.  Maybe it would be better to say they want to lure younger readers back, and manga is one way.  Coming up with new ones hasn't worked (as discussed extensively above).  So, if Mohamed won't go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohamed.

CT: I'd also like to add that for good or bad, people do judge a book (in this case manga) by its cover. Whether they're familiar with the X-Men brand name or not, if the casual reader drops by and sees a cover that interests them, they might just buy it. Theoretically a manga cover might be more appealing.

JT: Alex, I have no reasoning why a girl wouldn't like X-Men, I am sure there are lots of girls that do like X-Men, but I was questioning the logic of making a manga (or shojo) version of The X-Men if the intention is to expand the female readership of the comics. Yes, maybe non-comic reading girls will pick up on a manga at Borders before a floppy at the comic shop, but I think it is a stretch to think that manga is going to pull her from Borders into the comic shop. The fact that the vast majority of X-Men readers are male I think is evidence to a barrier to entry. You can shojo-ize it, and maybe some girls will pick up on it, but to me it seems like a lot of effort for a limited return. I hope I am wrong, believe me, and I think your arguments as to why I might be wrong hold water. Your point about age and gender is well made. I do agree the US tries to throw a wider net were Japan goes more niche, but I do think things like the Avril Lavigne OEL manga target both an age group and a gender.

If I implied any negative impressions to American female manga readers, that was purely unintentional. I am very aware girls and women also enjoy reading seinen titles and women are just as, or probably more savvy readers as men. That's partially why I question making a "shojo X-Men" if the point is to bring in more female readers.

Lori, I wished I was more clear when I said there are gray areas. There are distinct target markets, in the "big four" manga targets, but there is certainly leakage all around. Although my favorite titles tend to be seinen, there are some terrific shojo and shonen titles I enjoy, too. (I wish I had more exposure to jyosei titles...)

If the point of these titles is to lure in younger readers, I am all for it. I think it is easier to pull a younger age group up than it is a gender over (if that makes any sense) as it is easy to "graduate" from younger-focused titles to more mature titles as one gets older. I can understand Marvel wanting to get manga readers to read manga about their characters, and that makes sense. It doesn't thrill me, but it makes sense. It doesn't thrill me in the same way that "Twilight" is called a "vampire" movie, but if it puts butts in seats, I guess I can understand. My only other issue would be that Marvel isn't a manga publisher, it is a comic publisher, but maybe that part is an argument for a different day.

LH: I completely agree with you about the age over gender, John.  I've always emphasized age rating over gender for my girls.  I also agree with you about not being thrilled about Marvel's move.  But, as for them not being a manga publisher, I'm sure they are well aware of that, and that's why these titles were handed over to Del Rey.  Marvel just gets to have their name all over it because it's their characters.  If there are any problems with the way it's handled as a manga, it's gonna be Del Rey's fault.

JT: Point well taken, Lori. I suppose now we just wait and see how it turns out.

Lori Henderson